Forgiveness

[Michelle Young]

Due to a debate starting on a previous place, i thought it was in the best interest to bring the debate here.

This way it is no longer in the way of the previous thread.

I believe that i may have miscommunicated my thoughts on forgiveness.

I do feel that when addressing a client, to ask them to forgive a abuser is not 'our' call. This can only be done with the client calling the shots. There can be so many feelings, emotions, scars, both physical and mental by abuse. Who are we to ask someone to forgive their abuser? By doing so 'we' apply pressure to the client. Sometimes forgiveness can take many years to achieve, sometimes they will never seek or want to forgive. We cannot assume that by not forgiving, there is hatred.
If the client is not mentioning anything about forgiveness, should we actually require this from them. Are we right to suggest that they find it within themselves?

Forgiveness in general is not found over night, let alone in one session. For someone not to forgive, does not make them any more different then the rest of us. If we follow the laws of forgiveness, then we should forgive them for not forgiving.... or if we dont are we too, then wrong?

There is a confusion on my beliefs of forgiveness and how i believe we should approach a client regarding forgiveness.

Sometimes, the most powerful accomplishments achieved in society are successful by a single person not forgiving, because they are driven to make a change, they feel so empowered in their feelings of hurt and wrong doing they stand up and fight. There is fighting for good as well as evil.

There is also a huge difference between forgiving and letting go off all negative emotions and feelings surrounding a incident. Forgiving ourselves is very powerful.

If we forgave a terroist for what they had done, and they walked out and caused another tragic action, would still forgiving them stop the actions?

What i was trying to say, that as a coach, therapist., nlp'er, etc,... we dont hold the right to ask our client to forgive anyone. I believe that by us asking this of a client can push them into a corner of self analysing their own emotions which can lead them into questioning themselves about whether they can or cannot forgive someone. This can lead to self doubt, confusion, guilt and a whole complex of negative emotions. We are here to help clients, not to make them feel worse.

I wish i could post more on this right now, but i need to be a mom and cook lol

Hugs
Michelle

[Tomwalked]

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Michelle I completely agree.


I think this is a matter of semantics in many ways.
I can forgive a terrorist but still keep his violent butt in jail!

forgiveness isn't naive, or stupid or even ignorant... in many cases it is a deeply spiritual act.


AND... to state... many times it is an incredibly pompous act to forgive someone... For instance:
We may feel as though someone has done us some disservice or performed some sort of personal affront against us... when in fact, the act may have been more innocent - not intended to harm...


I will take this example because it is a personal example and it is currently in the forefront of my mind...
(here goes)
I feel as though you restarted this thread as a way to "teach me a lesson" about forum etiquette...
now... I can think that I should "forgive you" for the "insult"...
but the truth of the matter is this...

you either did mean it as an insult...
OR you didn't...

Either way...
this is happening in MY brain.
Once I see that whatever is happening with you... is happening with you...
and whatever is happening with me is happening with me... there IS no reason to forgive.
this is more like a choice in perspective...
so forgiveness is moot.

but... the abuse I received as a child... is more complex.
yes... my abusers were most probably abused as well... and they continue the cycle.
I can sympathize with them for that...
forgiveness is more challenging however.

and your'e right...
it sometimes takes time...



(shoot! ran out of time)

friends?



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[Michelle Young]

What a interesting sbuject 

It would be great if more people could add their points of views here...


Good morning Tom.

I restarted this thread over here simply because i thought forgiveness was a interesting subject for debate, and that it 'deserved' a thread all to its self.
This was by no-means a personal attack at you or a insult to you.

You are right when you mentioned that 'forgiveness is a deeply spiritual act'

I see forgiveness as a journey in a lot of people.. Normally there is a huge wave of emotions that someone has to work through before they can be at peace within themselves to consider forgiveness. Normally when someone is hurt, angry, frustrated.. forgveness would not normally be a emotion they are considering.
I say normally here.. Most people whom we come to meet in life who reach out to 'us' do not have the training or attitudes we have. We have travelled our own journey's to becomes coaches etc, we have learned to understand our own feelings, spent time on learning how to let go of issues, how to change state etc.. I am sure none of us learned the skills over night.

Forgiveness surley has to come from within first. A person needs to forgive themselves, normally surround a very emotive issue, the victim can be filled with guilt etc.

Gandhi once said 'Forgiveness is choosing to love. It is the first skill of self-giving love'

When i am being client focused, i would not ask them to forgive someone, i believe that comes from within them and not my belief on forgiveness. I always seperate my belief system from theirs, whats important to me when i am working with someone, is what either their belief or disbelief system makes them think and or feel. Realistically, what i think or feel has nothing to do with them moving forwards.

I think there has been a miscommunication on what my feelings are on forgiveness and what my feelings are when addressing a client and suggesting forgiveness.

As coaches etc, we will all have our own belief systems, and one thing i recall from the first day of going into learn NLP was a quote, I cannot recall if either Paul, Richard or Michael said it, but it was 'when you move outside your comfort zone, and you will learn', this will always stick in my head.  I welcome people challenging my belief system, i am always interested in listening to their point of view. Its through this process I can learn and grow with a greater understand of what other people think and feel and why they do.

I really appreciate all of your input on the the subject Tom, and its great to see another write so passionatley. Thank you.

[new girl]

I have been having this conversation with a friend and she is unable to give me a satisfactory answer, what is the difference between forgiving and accepting.

In my mind you forgive your kids when they do something stupid and break something, crash the car or maybe say something hurtful before they think about it.

I don't know how it is possible to forgive someone (usually a trusted adult) for any sort of abuse.

All the therapy in the world cannot stop painful memories, even if they are not present all the time, sometimes you see something on telly, a comment made in jest, a song can bring all that pain back in a flash.

I think as long as a person is clear in their head that in no way did they invite or deserve the abuse it is easier to accept but forgive..........

[Jay Budzynski]

Hi

I have read this and found it to be both insightful and useful, so now I have to go on a bit of a tangent- If you are willing grab a pen or pencil or something that you are willing to drop on the floor, I am going to invite you to repeat this first little bit a number of times, hold the pen or pencil and make sure the palm of your hand is facing the sky- now squeeze the pen or pencil and keep squeezing until it starts to feel uncomfortable- now repeat that a number of times- Now ask this of yourself, How is doing this helping me find comfort? Now keep that/this experience in mind, now once again squeeze the pen or pencil really really hard, now turn your wrist over so the palm of your hand in floor facing, now open your hand, and allow the pen or pencil fall- now if the pen or pencil represents all the crap we have dealt with in life- what have we learned by making a slight shift in consciousness? 

I don't think we need to forgive the instigator of the abuse- what we have to be is at peace with ourselves has that is what really happens when we forgive someone, we forgive that time stamp where  x event(s) occurred- and just like allowing the pen fall- you do that by giving yourself permission- and just releasing and letting go.

I know that is easier said than done, or so it may seem, yet at the same time, the question that needs to be answered- when is it enough, x event happen x time ago, and the abuser has gone, yet who's playing the crap memories over and over? So it time to stop such stuff- and a combination of tools are at hand, NLP, EFT, the sedona method- which is an emotional release process, and is very powerful, so all this comes down to a set of choices- and its about growing a set of balls and living life- rather than living in side a shadow- its about using your emotional energies in powerful supportive ways- and asking yourself questions that open up choices and by default create an empowering new set of directions.

Create healthy boundaries- by asking yourself heathly questions.


Jay

In that instant when you allowed the pen to fall, what do you think would happen if you placed any and all your crap in the mind space, and you just left it there and found a profound sense of self in that moment- nd took it with everywhere you need it most in and through all times. 

 

[new girl]

Sounds like acceptance to me but Jay I will say that "forgiving that time stamp" is maybe the best advise I have heard,

thanks

[Tomwalked]

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well for me...

forgiveness - requires judgment. "I have determined that someone has done me a wrong"... that "wrong" could be illusory, it could be "real"... but, "wrong-doing" is judgment call.

acceptance - can be done without judgment. It is, perhaps the perception of what is without the intent to change it... not to say that "what is" is forever, and that it can not be changed, it can.

wonderful question New Girl, it made me stop and mull - and refine my thoughts on the subject.


I accept my past, what happened in my life, but choose to not allow it to make me distrust and hate people...




and it is the "poster moment" of martyrdom...
when Christ is on the cross...
"forgive them Father, for they know not what they do..."






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[David]

To get very heavy on forgiveness, as Tom said, forgiving implies a wrong from the other person. When we live from the point of view that "Nothing bad ever happens" then there is in reality nothing to forgive. Whatever that person has done "to you" is actually a gift from the Universe "for you." Maybe a lesson, maybe a hidden idea, something about the event has benefited you. It's a lot to wrap my/your mind around sometimes but if you believe that the Universe is perfect, then everything in the Universe is perfect, and not only couldn't things have happened any other way, but shouldn't have happened any other way.

Does that make sense? (I'm practicing that line!)

David

[new girl]

Have just been watching the last lecture by  Randy Pausch, again, and like the man says "you cannot change the hand you were dealt". 

[Michelle Young]

This is such a interesting subject, and everyones imput is just making me see things from many different angles, another gift from the universe?

David you make some really good points in your posting   

New girl, looking at the hand we are dealt with... Made me think a lot.

Sometimes we have limited choices in life, but it is what we do with those choices that count. Someone may have done wrong in our eyes, as Tom said, thats our judgement call. How we handle things, wrong doings, as well as right ones, is what makes us, us.

When something bad or good has happened to us in life, it becomes part of us, it shapes us, we can decide if we use that experience for negative purposes or positive ones. Something can make us better, stronger, wiser as long as we choose to do so.

I think that its about accepting that something has happened and choosing how to grow from that experience. Bad things can eat away at us, if they nibble at us they can only make us smaller, but if we take on board they are part of us then they have made us grow.

[David]

That's awesome Michelle! Acceptance is the key, accepting that it's in the past, it's essentially no longer real, just a memory. So now we deal with Now. And wasting energy using Now to relive and judge the past just doesn't make sense. It will slow growth, we'll lose awareness. And if forgiveness gives the forgiver relief to move to Now that's awesome too! It's really hard to screw up, it would seem. But.......

Love and cheers!

[Michelle Young]

David so very true... I agree with you